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Spring 2005 |
This newsletter has been edited to remove all personal details. This has meant the complete removal of some articles. All members will have received the printed newsletter by now. To join go to About the Society
The arrival of Spring in Gower is very welcome. Winter for us has been a season of swings from one extreme of temperature to another, though fortunately the peninsula has not suffered the devastation experienced elsewhere.
As most of you know, my walking these days is severely restricted, due to an old back injury and the related arthritis. Rough, slippery or stony ground is not for me; consequently my daily dogwalking has to be confined to a circuit of the dunes and beach at Horton and Porteynon. Happily, this enables me to keep a close eye on the beach changes there. Inevitably these last few weeks the tsunami which devastated the Indian Ocean area has been in my mind. The television reports have made us all realise how very vulnerable we are to the forces of nature. In Gower, we must value and preserve our sand dunes; they are our shield against the extremes of the sea. The erosion still taking place at Horton poses the question How would the dunes at that point protect the land behind from a 35-foot high wave? Vigilance and persistence are more important than ever before. This Newsletter contains the latest Assembly position on dredging off Gower. Read the reports carefully, and judge for yourselves whether the precautionary principle we have so often advocated is being given the importance and urgency it deserves. For the first time, the Newsletter also gives the time and place of the surgeries held by our MP and AM. Remember Martin Caton is both our MP and the Gower Society President. If you are concerned, why not take the opportunity to go along and make your views known?
On the topic of weather and its effects in Gower, I have had a very timely e-mail from my friend Marygold Rix-Miller. Long-time resident in New Zealand, she reminded me of the strong link with Gower. Clovercliff at Pitton was built, and is still owned by, her family. In February 1939, Marygold's mother made the following entry in her Diary: -
'During the tornado of November 3rd, foam from the sea went as far as Great Pitton Farm so that they could not see out of the windows,
. They have never known it to happen before. All the grass and remaining flowers were blackened as if by frost. They looked out on a changed world. It also poisoned the gorse. Instead of it beginning to show green now, it is all dry and dead. The Gower Cliffs will look very bare this year and we will not be able to look out on our yellow garden. The roots aren't dead and Mr George Beynon advised our burning it. The wind was away from the house and hut yesterday, so we set fire to the dry dead grass and it burnt in glorious flames. It has left black sticks and looks bad, but it was no use leaving it dead, and when we come back in the Spring I hope to have the right cutty tool so that I can gradually clear away the dead black wood, then we can hope next year it will be lovely. The lawn is made into hillocks by moles. We have caught four.'
Thank you, Marygold, for a timely reminder of the sea's power.
Secretary Reports
A Very Special Birthday
February was a very special month for the Gower Society! Hilda May Roffey, Gower Society Life member and a shining example of the benefits afforded by the Society, celebrated her 104th Birthday. She settled here in 1965, when, with her late husband, Jack Roffey, she moved from London. Formerly of Dunvant, but now a resident of Three Cliffs Nursing Home, Penmaen , she was feted by the local press, and obviously enjoyed her day! She reports that fresh food and plenty of long walks are the secret of a long and healthy life! Visited by Ruth and other Society members, who helped with her celebrations.
Gower Commons Initiative
Members may have noticed that some of the cattle roaming on Gower commons are now sporting reflective collars. These are taking part in the trialling of this new collar design. More collars will subsequently be ordered if these prove to function well. The cost of the Gower Commons Initiative project has been underwritten by the Gower Society we hope that this will help to reduce the number of accidents and cattle fatalities, many caused by the excessive speed of the car driver.
Gower Commons Initiative workers have resumed their work with chainsaws (and they apologise for the noise!) as they endeavour to continue last year's efforts to clear encroaching scrub and trees on the commons.
Membership Subscriptions
Our Membership Secretary would like to thank all those members who promptly updated their banker's Order forms and thus ensured that they were paying the correct amount for 2004 (see last Newsletter and the October subscription mailing letter,)
However, a high proportion failed to respond at all, or are still paying at the old rate. Here is a reminder: - subscriptions are now at the following rates (which includes a copy of the Journal in each year it is published) a bargain!
Individual £10 Family £15 Group £15
Life membership (if over 60 years) : Individual £150 Family £200
Chairman Reports
Seminar at Swansea Guildhall: -
The Welsh Assembly Government's Interim Marine Aggregates Dredging Policy was the subject of a seminar at Swansea's Guildhall recently, organised by Martin Caton, M.P. for Gower and The Gower Society President.
The policy, background monitoring and analysis were clearly presented by
Kay Powell, Head of the Planning Division at WAG, to an audience representing Community Councils, the Gower Society, Save Our Sands, the National Trust and Friends of the Earth. In a lively question/answer session,
Ms Powell was left in no doubt as to the local feeling regarding Helwick. Questions were asked on the credibility of the Environmental Impact Assessment paid for by the dredging company, on the accuracy of some of the E.I.A. statistics and statements, on the evidence of transfer of sand from Port Eynon beach (and others) to Helwick, on the disappearance of the peat bed uncovered 2/3 years ago, on the adequacy - or inadequacy - of the beach monitoring, on alternatives (recycling, dredging further off-shore etc.).
Ms Powell agreed that there was "a vast amount of knowledge in the local
community" and that the consultation had received some 1400 responses,
which she claimed had been carefully considered. The long-term strategy of WAG was to move dredging further west and further from the coast.
Martin Caton concluded the seminar by thanking Ms Powell, and re-emphasising the strengths of the argument for moving dredging away from the Helwick Bank.
(For a more detailed report on this very important seminar by Tony Dobbs, and its implications, see Save Our Sands section.)
Mindless Vandalism
Stop the Damage!
Illegal fires on the commons are dangerous and damaging. Everyone in Gower has been asked to co-operate by reporting any fires (the police will know if they are legal or not) and anyone who starts illegal fires. Scrambler bikes and four-wheeled drives are also wrecking parts of the commons. It is illegal to ride or drive on the commons, but the culprits have to be caught.
If you see fires or illegal driving, ring the police, or Crimestoppers on 0800 555 111
If you go down to the dunes today
.
You might be in for a big surprise! CCW has informed us that work will be carried out this Spring at Oxwich, removing scrub and scraping away the surface of a low lying hollow. This is not far from a similar scheme carried out successfully in 1991 to return the dune slack to its original state, encouraging the growth of the habitat species. The new work is also designed to support a recently discovered, rare bryophite. So, if anyone asks you what is going on, now you can tell them. (M.R.)
President's Evening
Talk to Gower Society at Swansea Museum Saturday 12 February 2005
The Society was pleased to welcome its president, Martin Caton MP, the speaker on this occasion for our regular Saturday Evening Talk. The occasion was tinged with sadness this was the last time he was to address the Society in this capacity, as his term of office is drawing to a close.
He stressed the conflict which can arise, between 'Greater Good v Local Good', and raised issues all too familiar to his listeners, and the dilemmas facing decision makers.
Sewage plants, wind turbines, dredging, jobs v the environment, affordable housing for young people he spoke at length on all these issues, all of which have been raised many times in Society Committee meetings. He showed a sensitivity to the issues which was refreshing. So often we feel that, where Gower is concerned, politicians are not listening! But, of course, he is a local man!
His views on dredging were interesting, particularly where the Helwick Bank was concerned. He pointed out that to cease dredging there would mean
'either quarrying on land with all the damage to the environment that causes, including to the quality of life for people living near to the quarry or the roadways to and from it. Or it means finding other dredging sites off our coast where there will not be the same negative impact on our beaches.
If this can be done, I think we would mostly welcome it. Thankfully this is the thrust of National Assembly policy now, as outlined in their recently published Interim Marine Aggregates Dredging Policy basically to shift extraction over the next 10 to 15 years further away from the coastline into the deeper waters of the outer Bristol Channel. Unfortunately, at the moment Helwick is still classified as Category 2 where a precautionary approach will be applied but dredging could go ahead under certain conditions. I would like to see it shifted into Category 3 where, and I quote "The Assembly is very unlikely to look favourably on dredging for marine aggregates because in the light of significant identifiable constraints the impact is considered to be unacceptable."'
He moved on to discuss the pressures on surrounding areas by designating special conservation areas, especially National Parks and Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty. 'And that's a particular issue for us here in Wales as so much of our country is protected landscape. And, of course, it's a particular issue for us in the rural parts of the City and County of Swansea that are not within the boundaries of the AONB.
Local youngsters are unable to compete and are forced to look elsewhere for somewhere to live. This means that there are fewer young families in the village and, therefore, fewer children feeding in to what is still a very good primary school.
"Think Global : Act Local" is a fine slogan and if it reminds us to turn lights off and recycle what we can I'm all for it. But I also think we have to "Think Local : Act Local". If I as MP or we as the Gower Society see something on the horizon that could either harm or benefit Gower, we have to fight for our patch, even though others in other geographical areas have legitimate, alternative cases to make.'
He ended by issuing a challenge to the members: -
'Next year is the 50th Anniversary of Gower's designation as an Area of Outstanding Natural beauty. Let's get as much of it done before then as we can.'
Perhaps members could take up that challenge, and visit his 'surgeries' to offer support and encouragement to toe the 'local line' where Gower's future is concerned! (Ed)
'Surgery' times: - Martin Caton MP and Edwina Hart AM
Their 'surgeries' will be held as follows; -
Pontardulais Mechanics Institute (Friday 4.00pm)
April 1, May 6, June 3, July 1, Aug 5, Sept 2, Oct 7, Nov 4, Dec2
Gorseinon Advice Office, 9 Pontardulais Road (Friday 6.00pm)
April 1, May 6, June 3, July 1, Aug 5, Sept 2, Oct 7, Nov 4, Dec 2
Clydach Community Centre (Saturday 10.30am)
April 2, May 7, June 4, July 2, Aug 6, Sept 3, Oct 8, Nov 5, Dec 3
Mumbles Ostreme Centre (Saturday 10.30am)
April 30, May 28, June 25, July 30, Aug 27, Sept 24, Oct 29, Nov 26
Obituary
It is with very great sadness that we have learned, just as we are going to press, of the death of Emeritus Professor Sir Glanmor Williams, O.B.E. Glanmor was a great Welshman and an internationally acknowledged and celebrated historian. He was also a man of huge humanity and immense modesty. Glanmor joined the Gower Society at its inception and was our first and only Director of Research since, after the first year, he simplified this title to Historian and has remained our Honorary Historian ever since. In addition to his major researches and publications on Welsh history, he wrote numerous articles for 'Gower' and was part of the early editorial team. He became an Honorary Life Vice-President of the Society in 1998. His charming autobiography, published in 2002, "Glanmor Williams: A Life", starts off 'Bachan bech o Ddowlish (A little boy from Dowlais): that is what I have always been and very largely what I still am'. Sadly, the little boy and the great man will no longer be here in person to teach us history and humanity. He will, however, retain a special place in our hearts and in our minds. (M.R.)
Publications
Gower' 56
It is only a few months since the 2004 volume of 'Gower' was published and distributed to members, but already preliminary work for the next issue has begun. Contributions are invited and may be sent to our editor, The Editor, Gower Society, c/o Swansea Museum, Victoria Road, Swansea., to arrive before 1st July 2005 (or, preferably, earlier). Articles should be prepared in clear double-spaced print, and sent with a computer disk in standard format if available. Illustrations relevant to submitted articles are welcome. (B. Morris)
A Small Archaeological Opportunity
Dr Jonathan Kissock of the University of Wales, Newport, is hoping to arrange some archaeological sampling of a possible Iron Age site in Gower which has been indicated by recent preliminary work. The site lies between Scurlage and the Llanddewi-Knelston area. Subject to final arrangements still to be made, Dr Kissock hopes to excavate some test pits over the May Day Bank Holiday weekend (Saturday 30th April to Monday 2nd May), with the aim of confirming the character of the site. He needs to recruit about five or six people per day. Anyone interested in volunteering is invited to contact (email: Dr Kissock tel. 01633 432127/430088) for further information.
Gower Society Youth Action
The Gower Society Youth Action activities are going really well. If you have children or grandchildren aged 3-12 yrs., who would like to join in, contact Sheena (see the Youth activites page) for further details. Don't forget children have to be accompanied by an adult on these activities.
Gower Society Adopts A Beach
The Gower Society has 'adopted' part of Whiteford Beach, so we can play our part in an important nation wide survey of beach litter. In the long run, this project could help to protect beaches we so much enjoy, from the scourge of litter.
Adopt-a-Beach and Beachwatch are two marine litter projects co-ordinated by the Marine Conservation Society (MCS), the UK charity dedicated to the protection of the marine environment and its wildlife.
We need volunteers to come along to help monitor our adopted beach throughout the year by conducting quarterly litter surveys. The dates in 2005 are Saturday April 9th, June 25th, Sept 17th and Dec 17th. In order to do this we need to record every item of litter found on a representative 100m stretch and to collect the litter from the strand line to the back of the beach. All of the litter collected is noted on data collection sheets and the totals entered into the national litter database at MCS. The National Trust and CCW are supporting these projects.
The autumn survey on Sept 17th will be carried out as part of the Beachwatch event, the flagship event on the third weekend in September, whereby over 90 countries carry out litter surveys. So we get a global snapshot of worldwide litter.
By contributing to Adopt-a-Beach and Beachwatch events we will be contributing to stopping marine litter at source. The figures calculated within the Beachwatch report are used to lobby the government and to highlight the problems of marine litter. It may surprise you that the most common source of litter is from recreational users - US! (Joan Darbyshire)
The Landscape Interpreted in Stained Glass
Another successful Gower Society funded project has culminated in the making and installation of a beautiful stained glass window in St Gwynour's Church, Llanyrnewydd. The artist, Lilian Davies, has brilliantly portrayed the agrarian landscape, and writes that she wished to 'bring the outside in' hence the inclusion of sheep, referencing the importance of farming to the Gower community.
The Autumn Newsletter will hopefully include an article by Lilian, which is to hand, but constraints of space prevent doing it justice this time. Meanwhile, choose a sunny day, and visit St Gwynour's for yourselves to see the newly installed window.
Winter Talks
The almost concluded season of winter talks at Swansea Museum marks the end of an era. By September 2005, when the new series begins, our hardworking organiser, Dr. Angela Brunt, will have handed over the reins to Gary Gregor. (No wonder he has not found time to make up a Challenge for us recently!) No doubt, he will make an excellent talks organizer. But Angela will be a hard act to follow!
She thought members might be interested to know some of her 'guiding principles' over the past years. Her aims for all talks were:
They should be about Gower itself; they should cover both the Lordship and the peninsula; they should form a balanced mix; where possible, talks should be illustrated, to bring the topic 'alive'; they should provide a balance with the topics appearing in the Journals; she has tried not to repeat talks 'going the rounds' in other Societies; she has tried to avoid booking 'the same old faces' again and again; she has experimented (very successfully) by mixing experienced speakers with inexperienced (often first time) speakers; she has held back from speaking herself, except in dire emergencies; she has tried to avoid booking speakers too far in advance, thus reducing the risk of cancellations due to family and other commitments; she has aimed at a balance between male and female speakers; she has tried to keep a balance between officials representing organisations, and private individuals; she has sought to innovate the recent success of the 'three short talks' already mentioned proves her point; if questions are slow to come, she will start the ball rolling by asking one herself to encourage audience participation.
Words from a very wise person! Thank you, Angela. Enjoy your retirement! (Ed.)
Correspondence
A letter from Jenny Hill, Walk Co-ordinator for Macmillan Cancer Relief.
Macmarathon
22 mile sponsored Gower Cliff Walk in aid of Macmillan Cancer Relief
This very popular sponsored walk 22 miles or part of it, will take place on Saturday 3rd of September 2005. The walk starts at Rhossili car park and ends in Bracelet Bay car park with many optional pleasant stopping places on the way. We provide buses to transport walkers to the start from Bracelet Bay car park for those wishing to leave their cars at the finish point. Certificates are presented at the end where Castellamare also provide a special buffet for £5.
Well over 500 took part last year raising an amazing £40,000. We do hope some of you will join us again and bring your friends.
This year we are introducing registration forms and an entry fee of £5. These can be obtained by downloading from the Macmillan web site
Llanmadoc Community Shop.
Ivor Williams writes:
Dear Mrs Ridge
The Llanmadoc Village Shop and Post office closed in May 2004. There had been a shop and Post Office in the village since before 1900, and a group of residents have been working to re-open this valuable community asset. Despite the usual set backs we are now confident that our new Community Shop and Post office will re-open on April 30th 2005. It is being established as a Village Co-operative, registered as an Industrial and provident Society, and will be managed and run by volunteers. The shop will include a coffee shop and provide an outlet for fresh local produce, home baking and local crafts. It is our intention to develop the shop as a meeting point and a source of local information. During the summer months we intend to hold a weekly local produce and craft market in the shop precinct.
The Society has decided to issue 8,000 £1 shares to provide the start up capital for the shop. The residents in North West Gower have responded magnificently to the share issue with over £5,000 pledged so far.
We are now inviting support for our shop from local associations and societies. This support could take a number of forms such as investing in the Society, sponsoring some aspect of the shop (eg staff uniforms / notice boards / display of old photographs / prints of Gower) or purchasing a specific piece of equipment. All such support will be acknowledged on a plaque to be placed in the shop.
If you would like further information, please do not hesitate to contact us. Yours sincerely on behalf of Llanmadoc Community Shop Ivor Williams.
Gower Society e-bay?
Gary Gregor reports that the following second-hand books about Gower and Swansea have become available. Kindly send or e-mail a note of what you would be willing to pay by 20th April to Gary Gregor,c/o Gower Society, Swansea Museum, Victoria Road, Swansea or e-mail toGary Gregor All monies will go to the Gower Society.
Books
A Guide to Gower, 2nd edition 1966
Gower (Regional Books Series) Olive Phillips 1956
Yesterday's Gower J Mansel Thomas 1982
A Gower Anthology David Rees 1977
Swansea Alderman Edward Harris 1935
The Swansea Guide 1851 John Lewis 1989
Gower Journey A G Thompson 1950
Gower Journey A G Thompson revised edition 1960
A Pictorial Journey through Edwardian Gower D Gwynn & P Muxworthy 1988
Hanes Pontardulais E Lewis Evans 1949
Booklets
Thirty Walks in Gower Roger Jones
Swansea 1184-1984 J R Alban (pub. By the Evening Post) 1984
The Story of the City of Swansea Frank Tyrell
Swansea castle Edith Evans 1983
BOOKSHELF
A Family to look forward to: -
When Robert Lucas was our Society President, he published A Gower Family, the story of the Lucases of Stouthall and Rhossili Rectory. We have just heard that a new edition of the book, which has been out of print for a long time, is being prepared by Mr Lucas. This will be a hard-back, with lots of colour illustrations. Look out for it in late summer and we will bring you up-to-date news in our next Newsletter. (M.R.)
Save Our Sands
Report by Tony Dobbs
Martin Caton organised a meeting at the Guildhall Swansea on 19th February. It was well attended by invitees from local Community Councils and other interested organisations including, of course, the Gower Society.
The meeting was addressed by Kay Powell, Head of Planning Division at the Welsh Assembly who gave a presentation on the recently published "Interim Marine Aggregate Dredging Policy" (copies of this document are available free of charge from the Planning Division, Welsh Assembly Government, Cathays Park, Cardiff CF10 3NQ). The current dredging licence on Helwick expires in October this year; the application to expand and extend it is still in the process of being considered and the Gower Society has been active in responding to the public consultation process. The Interim Policy that was the subject of the meeting is concerned with setting a framework for decision making for future dredging applications. The Policy identifies 49 large regions of the Severn Estuary which it calls "Sediment Environments" and categorises each of them in terms of their "favourability" for dredging. There are basically three categories - favourable, precautionary and unfavourable. These categories are not the final word. Each dredging application will be considered on its own merits but it seems fair to assume that they are pretty strong hints. The Helwick Bank, which lies just off the Gower coast between Port Eynon and Worms Head, has been placed in the Precautionary category, more on this later.
The Interim policy also makes clear statements on a number of other key
issues such as: -
* Dredged sand will continue for the foreseeable future to be a major
source of aggregate for South Wales.
* Dredging activity will progressively, over the next ten years, be
focussed in off-shore areas further to the west
* The licensed capacity will be maintained at a level of 2 million
tonnes (this is twice the amount removed in 2001)
* Normally licences awarded in precautionary environments will be
between 3 and 7 years in duration and longer licences up to 15 years will apply in favourable areas
* Any sand dredged for beach recharge will not be counted in the above
total!!
There are also a good many other statements concerning encouragement of
recycling and alternatives, requirements for monitoring associated with any
licences etc.
In the meeting there was a good deal of discussion about the comparison of
the situation at Nash Bank (also a precautionary sediment environment) where no more licences for dredging will be issued after 2010 and Helwick. Kay Powell stated that these were very different in that damage had been noted on the Nash attributable to dredging but none had been found on Helwick or the surrounding area which she felt were attributable to dredging.
Taking a guess at what might happen, it seems that dredging will stop at
Helwick hopefully within a ten-year time span. If and when exactly seems to
depend on a number of issues such as how strong the dredging companies make arguments about the additional costs they say will be involved, how quickly information is gathered about the impacts of dredging on the new sites further west, known as the Nobel Banks and on the strength of public opinion.
It is election year so "the public" probably carry more weight now than at any other time. If you care about what happens on this subject now is an ideal time to write to your MP, MEP and/or Assembly Member and make your views heard.
Gower Society Talks
On 29th January the Saturday Evening Talks featured 'three talks in one evening'. This proved to be a fascinating evening 3 excellent talks presented by: - Isobel Thomas (memories of growing up in Gower in the 1920s and 1930s), Roger Button (proprietor of Pitton Cross Camp Site, on the marketing & day-to-day running of the site,) and Pat Williams (the work of the Llanrhidian local history group and its recent publication Our Memories of Llanrhidian which has already sold 650 copies. [See Autumn 2004 Newsletter]. In view of the prime importance of tourism to Gower today, when local agriculture, for so many reasons, is struggling, I have prevailed on Roger to allow me to include part of his talk in the Newsletter, for the benefit of members who were unable to hear him in person. ( Ed.)
Roger Button asks: Did You Know?
I am Roger Button and I run Pitton Cross Caravan Park. I have lived in Gower all my life my family roots date back to the1590's, so I can call myself a Gower man born and bred. My grand father Rowland Morgan lived at Paviland at time of the cave excavations and was involved with the removal of artefacts found there, including the 'Red Lady' which I'm sure you will all agree should be displayed in this building (Swansea Museum) and not in Oxford. I have been farming for 30 years, and have seen many changes. I have deep concerns at the way things are going. When the site was established at the start of World War ll, among those who camped at Button's Farm near Mewslade was Dylan Thomas. Nowadays a 3* site, its customers have high expectations.
'There's nowt stranger than folk', as the saying goes! To do this job successfully one has to be a social animal and like people. However as the season goes on one becomes less social and more animal! Patience gets ever shorter etc, and bite marks appear on the tongue! With a relatively short season, one has to attempt to spread the load more evenly. Thus there is a need for things to do on a typical Gower rainy day.
The lack of infrastructure and capacity to cope with many more people has to be balanced with the constraints of working in the ANOB a balance between the demands of conservation and economy. There is a desperate need to plan some flexibility on busy weekends when sites are full even if simply to take traffic off the roads and I personally feel that this should be up to individual operators who have the facilities and the capacity to cater for them. There are too many instances of farmers opening fields with minimal or no facilities, which give a bad impression to visitors.
However there is a balance to be made between enjoying and spoiling and that balance is wafer thin. The rural economy is under threat as never before, with poor returns on effort over production, changing eating habits, and cheap imports. Tree planting would certainly soften the visual effect of some static caravan parks by screening the more exposed sites and lessening the impact on the landscape.
Gower is a special place and for it to survive, it is up to us to preserve it as a working environment and not as a museum, if it is to survive for our children and grandchildren to enjoy as we have done. Like it or not, with all the problems affecting the traditional agricultural economy of former days, tourism and caravan parks have a big part to play in sustaining and maintaining the Gower we know and have.
Past Times
Another 'titbit' from the Cambrian, courtesy of Michael Gibbs.
Sunday se'vnight, as John Griffiths of Lanmadock, near this town, was walking on the sea-shore at Whitford, he perceived a package floating on the water, which he of course took up and upon examination it was found to contain vouchers to a very large amount, letters of advice, various drafts, and notes of hand, apparently cancelled, abstracts of tenders, and other papers, mostly dated Fort St. George, Bombay and Madras. They appear to belong to the executors of Arthur Cuthbert, Esq., and it is conjectured, had been lost from on board an East-India ship; but notwithstanding the long time they must have remained in the sea, the papers are but little injured. A description of them was forwarded this week to a house in London.
(Cambrian 23 June 1804, p3, column 4)
(Grateful thanks to contributors who sent their
items in early, particularly those who sent them
as Word Documents on disk. This saves hours
of typing with a deadline to meet. Ed.)